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Agile Leadership Lessons Podcast, Masterclass Series: Episode 9 - Beyond the Payslip: Exploring the Deeper Benefits of Meaningful Work

​Join Watermark for another episode in our Masterclass Series, where we turn our highly regarded interim webinars into podcast episodes.

This episode features Renee Burkinshaw, Founder and Director of Originate Coaching and Consulting. Renee unlocks the hidden treasures that lie beyond the payslip and speaks about the essential ingredients for organisational prosperity, the profound difference between merely being and true belonging at work, her research on purpose-led inclusion, and practical strategies to kickstart your journey toward a more meaningful professional life.

Listen to gain insights and advice for current and future leaders.

You can also find the podcast on several different apps, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Breaker, Castbox, Google Podcasts, Overcast, Pocket Casts, and RadioPublic. Click here to listen & subscribe on your favourite app or read the transcript below.

Beyond the Payslip: Exploring the Deeper Benefits of Meaningful Work
Agile Leadership Lessons, Masterclass Series - Episode 9, transcript:

Caroline McAuliffe, Senior Partner at Watermark Search International:

Welcome to the Masterclass Series of the Watermark Search podcast. Hi. I'm Caroline McAuliffe, Senior Partner at Watermark Search, and here at Watermark, we're dedicated to bringing you the best of the best in thought leadership, and now we're thrilled to bring you our very best insights in a whole new way. In our Masterclass Series, we're transforming our highly regarded webinars into podcast episodes, making it easier than ever for you to access invaluable knowledge and expertise on the go. So whether you're commuting, exercising or just taking a break, you can now stay informed and inspired with the latest trends, strategies and success stories from the world of interim, executive search and leadership. So please sit back, relax, and let's dive into today's episode of the Watermark Search Masterclass Series.

Good morning and welcome everyone to today's webinar on exploring the deeper benefits of meaningful work, featuring our guest speaker, Renee Burkinshaw. Now let's set the stage with some fascinating insights and why this topic of meaningful work is so important to us at Watermark. In our Interim Executive Survey last year, we discovered that 40% of our interim cohort prioritised meaningful work over whether the opportunity was permanent or interim. What mattered most to this group was the sense of purpose and real meaning to their work. Today, our goal is to delve into what meaningful work means for individuals, how leaders can foster it within themselves and their teams, and how organisations can leverage this knowledge to attract and retain talent. By cultivating a purpose driven culture and offering meaningful work experiences, organisations can create environments where employees thrive. Research consistently highlights the significance of meaningful work in our lives, showing how it surpasses factors like pay and rewards in importance. When work is perceived as meaningful individuals are more engaged, committed and satisfied. So this underscores the roles both leaders and individuals play in fostering meaningfulness at work, so leaders can create conducive conditions while individuals define what makes their work meaningful based on their values. So today we'll explore how fostering awareness can enhance relationships that can contribute to meaningful work experiences. Renee is going to share practical actions individuals can take to stimulate awareness and meaningful discussions in the workplace. And our objective is for each of you to leave today with three or four practical takeaways that you can start implementing right away. Now without further ado, let me introduce you to our esteemed guest, Renee Burkinshaw. She's the founder of Originate Coaching and Consulting. With over a decade of experience in HR leadership, Renee is passionate about uplifting leadership capability to build inclusive workplaces where employees thrive. Renee's philosophy centres around genuine belonging, anchored in individuals finding meaning and understanding their values, strengths and learning agility to inspire action. So Renee, to kick off, if you would share with us a little bit about your journey with meaningful work. What prompted your transition from a successful, permanent HR career to a portfolio career, and what drives your purpose in the work you do. What is your why?

Renee Burkinshaw, Founder and Director of Originate Coaching and Consulting:

Amazing. Thank you again for having me this morning, Caroline, I'm so excited to be here. It's an interesting question and I think a lot of us, over different periods and different stages in our lifetime, actually have that mirror moment as I like to ask it. So what is it exactly that I'm doing, and is it aligned with what it is I feel as though is bringing joy? Do I have moments where I'm in the flow? And that I'm able to actually know that I'm making a difference. So my decision, after 18 years in a phenomenal role, I decided, actually this is an opportunity for me to start to pursue that personal drive and purpose around diversifying my ability to share my experience and my passion, uplifting leadership confidence and capability, through my own business. So it was only around 18 months ago, as we've been discussing that things really kicked off. And the primary driver for me in that space was I wanted to diversify. I wanted to be able to engage and reach a range of different employees, organisations, their leaders, and providing some guidance around what would potentially be different in creating meaning and belonging at work. And a lot of that is stemming from how do we create inclusive cultures? So I'm so excited to be working with an array of different leaders, different organisations, different industries, primarily in executive coaching, but also in HR consulting.

Caroline McAuliffe, Senior Partner at Watermark Search International:

Great, thank you for sharing. I think we have a poll, don't we Renee that we'd like to...

Renee Burkinshaw, Founder and Director of Originate Coaching and Consulting:

We sure do, yeah, I'd love to put the first poll up right now and just to glean everyone's perception of what is actually most important. Now we're going to be soon talking about what is organisational prosperity, but I'd love to hear from yourself first. So the question we're posing today is, which of the following do you believe is most important in achieving organisational prosperity and making a positive impact on society? So the options to select are culture, wellbeing, inclusion, productivity, sustainability, and then all of the above or other. I'll give you a moment to cast your vote, and let's have a look at what we believe is most important in achieving organisational prosperity. Okay, wow, an overwhelming 61% say all of the above, so there is this significant intersection between what is the purpose of an organisation and the way in which it has actually an impact, not only on individuals, but certainly on society. So closely following the 61% is culture of 30%. And culture, thinking about that intersect of these are the values in action, so thinking about the way in which we're actually being in an organisation, and certainly our leadership styles and our philosophy. And we had nearly an even tie break between wellbeing and inclusion. But fascinatingly, productivity and sustainability isn't necessarily reaching a level of interest or potentially a sense of awareness at this point in time, and we'll have a bit of a deeper dive around what is then the broader sense of organisational prosperity.

So there's been a lot of interesting research with myself and a team, we call ourselves Thrive Starts, where we're actually looking at the intersection between what is culture, wellbeing, inclusion, sustainability and productivity. And the way in which employees, but certainly organisations, and then our consumers for society are actually expecting that there's going to be a bit of a shift around what is the value proposition of those organisations. And so in thinking about culture, most of us are actually actively doing engagement surveys. So what we're seeing is, beyond that particular survey, what else are we actually measuring? And what I really find fascinating is what is reported is actually done. And so the more that we start to think about across those five different components of what is organisational prosperity, if we're not necessarily leaning into understanding some of these elements and how we are actually performing and comparatively how we're performing against other organisations or industries so that we're looking to uplift the whole of society together.

Caroline McAuliffe, Senior Partner at Watermark Search International:

Renee, how do you define organisational prosperity?

Renee Burkinshaw, Founder and Director of Originate Coaching and Consulting:

So organisational prosperity, to me, is really around those lead indicators that help us to define what is the genuine impact that organisations are actually having? So are they thriving? Are their employees thriving? Is there productivity? Is there an ability for us to know what is our environmental and social impact? So the people that are within the organisation become an advocate, the people that potentially will be that alumni so even if they do leave to say actually, that was a great place to work. They really genuinely cared about me, but they also cared about our environment, and they cared about making sure that our organisation was sustainable, going to actually be within the future. And so for me, that level of values alignment of our people and that measurement is going to be really critical to understanding well, are we prosperous? Are we actually meeting all of those particular needs and expectations of society?

Caroline McAuliffe, Senior Partner at Watermark Search International:

In your experience, that result from our poll locally there, productivity and sustainability not coming up in there anywhere. Have you seen that?

Renee Burkinshaw, Founder and Director of Originate Coaching and Consulting:

Yeah, so we're actually finding there's actually more around inclusion. So inclusion is one of the areas that is a significant focus, but also sustainability and productivity. And what we're finding is, overall, at this point in time from our research, there's a 37% GDP leakage, which is actually equivalent to $550 billion per annum that is actually leaking from businesses. And of that $550 billion, $70 billion is actually through disengagement. It's quite a shocking figure to really think about. So that's just a microscopic element to what is actually making up how our people are engaged and whether they are aligned. Thinking about our values, there's values in a war in an organisation, but are we actually living into those? So the one thing that I always think about is what we walk past, the value that we're actually accepting, the behavior that we're actually accepting. So the more that we can reflect on that, the more important it is to say, actually, what is our organisation doing to make an impact and a positive difference?

Caroline McAuliffe, Senior Partner at Watermark Search International:

There's a comment in the chat box from Simone. Interesting that ethical behavior and integrity weren't listed.

Renee Burkinshaw, Founder and Director of Originate Coaching and Consulting:

Mmmm. So ethical behavior and integrity is really part of that culture dynamic, and in thinking about, well how we're showing up. So culture, really as we said, are the values in action. So thinking about our behaviors, so we feel as though that there is an ethical dilemma, moral dilemmas, or even behavioral issues, a lot of that is then reflective of, are we actually accepting that type of behavior, or are we starting to pull it out and starting to manage it so that it is actually considered and then improved and/or changed.

Caroline McAuliffe, Senior Partner at Watermark Search International:

Have you seen a drop off in the interest to invest in this type of program with people in organisations since covid, because we then hit economic headwinds, didn't we, coming out of that? And you know, there was a lot of articles and news around how we've gone back to basics, financial survival.

Renee Burkinshaw, Founder and Director of Originate Coaching and Consulting:

Yes, yes, absolutely.

Caroline McAuliffe, Senior Partner at Watermark Search International:

What's your comment around that?

Renee Burkinshaw, Founder and Director of Originate Coaching and Consulting:

Yeah, I think that the need to quickly, be agile and to change has then reset people's expectations. And so there's a number of things, especially even legislative changes actually coming through, that is ramping up more of a desire, especially around inclusion. Open reporting as an example, that's really giving us greater push. But again, it's from a compliance perspective, and that's what really worries me, is that we're actually starting to look at this and saying it's not a nice to have, it's a necessity. I think driving it for the right reason is going to be critical. But there is a number of things that have started to drop off because organisations, as you said, it's around survival.

Caroline McAuliffe, Senior Partner at Watermark Search International:

Yeah, there's a comment here from Alex, my colleague, quantifying disengagement is such a powerful tool, and I suspect all CEOs and CPOs would love to understand that for their organisations. And you and I spoke previously Renee, about how we make this an incentive commercially. Is it easy to measure a return on investment in this space?

Renee Burkinshaw, Founder and Director of Originate Coaching and Consulting:

I think, as we said, what is measured or reported gets done. And I think that that's our greatest challenge, are we actually capturing data and insights in a real time way? And that's really what our Thrive Stars approach is actually all about. So we're looking to create a technology platform that's going to be able to deliver that. So the more that organisations are leaning in, getting curious, going, well how might we and what is the actual return on investment here, but also then that impact on the GDP, if we don't invest in engagement.

Caroline McAuliffe, Senior Partner at Watermark Search International:

I love that stat that you just thrown out there. I mean, that's so powerful, isn't it? Tracy in the chat box - One of the challenges is that if psychological safety is missing, then people don't feel safe to speak out about values incongruence, right? So how do we create a safe environment/workplace that allows for that? Again, I guess it comes back to building that culture of safety.

Renee Burkinshaw, Founder and Director of Originate Coaching and Consulting:

It sure does, and a lot of it is really around authentic connection. Are we approaching people with curiosity? Are we asking questions and seeking to learn and to understand so that at least what we're starting to formulate is greater, closer relationships. And the way in which people work, we can start to identify, well how might I as a leader, help those particular individuals, or even the collective to be even more successful. So by creating and maintaining those positive relationships. Even something as simple as role clarity, I think that we seem to walk away from what we generally take for granted, around giving people safety, around understanding and having clarity around expectations, results, how do I give and receive feedback? And therefore, are we really investing in the right places around those relationships, which then, as a result, would result in higher connection.

Caroline McAuliffe, Senior Partner at Watermark Search International:

Should we move to true belonging at work for the next stage of our conversation?

Renee Burkinshaw, Founder and Director of Originate Coaching and Consulting:

Yeah and interestingly, when I was thinking about true belonging, and the word culture is obviously coming up a lot for us today, to think of the dynamic between culture fit and culture add. And a lot of us in, especially from recruitment or thinking about how we're performing, go straight to or it's about culture fit. And to me, underneath the hood, culture fit is all about survival and it's all about acceptance, where conversely, culture add is actually about, are we wrapping our arms around diversity of thinking and providing authentic value? So are we actually looking, thinking about recruitment as an example, are we looking for people that don't look like us, that don't have the same background, that don't necessarily think like us, that actually add some significant value in the way in which they approach their work, different experiences, different backgrounds, different perspectives, that are actually going to help the organisation. So it's a real challenge for all of us to think about. Another awful statistic to share with you today, which was actually quite shocking, we're all spending, on average 90,000 hours at work in our lifetime. And so if we're investing that much time, we have to then start to think, am I merely being or am I actually shifting into a space where I'm actually belonging? And as you rightly said at the beginning, Caroline, there is an element of, yes, organisations have accountability for them, but we also have to take personal accountability of, well, how are we actually developing and defining. So in doing that, being to me is I'm employed, I'm getting paid fairly for the work that I do, that I have a role, or I have a title, that I actually am part of a team, and then I have performance outcomes. So therefore some of the time we go, I have to, when you sort of think yeah I have to do the following. Where belonging to me is really around, I feel valued as an individual. There is an authentic and genuine interest in the work, my thoughts, my experiences, different perspectives and the way in which I'm actually able to deliver great outcomes, that I'm accepted, that I'm actually working within a team that is actually valuing and accepting and attributing to the actual ultimate development and output that's happening. And so instead of the, I have to, in this particular instance it is I get to. So if we're thinking from a mental model perspective, going wow if I get to do this every single day, I get to work with these amazing people, I actually feel as though I belong, and then I'm genuinely appreciated and accepted. That would just be an incredible place to be. So if we were to think about that, and if we are experiencing that right now, that's amazing. But the stretch on that would be, how are you encouraging and supporting others?

Caroline McAuliffe, Senior Partner at Watermark Search International:

Big comments here about 90,000 hours of work, it's huge. Is that more than we sleep in our lifetime?

Renee Burkinshaw, Founder and Director of Originate Coaching and Consulting:

I would sincerely hope not, but it's fascinating. Thinking about this ladder of going well if I have a job, and then if I have a career, and then if I have a calling and if we think about something as simple as Maslow's hierarchy of needs. We're talking about, being is really around, am I physiologically are my needs being met? Am I safe? Am I secure? And then progressing beyond that is really around, do I have relationships, my self esteem, and then that self actualisation is all in that space of I actually feel as though I'm belonging. I'm in a space where I'm actually giving and making an impact. So in the true sense of purpose, I'm making a difference in the world beyond what is just myself. And so it's very much an external view of this is my personal impact.

Caroline McAuliffe, Senior Partner at Watermark Search International:

Yeah, so when does that thinking start for an individual? I mean, it's obviously, and where do you start to actually, start to frame your individual, what is important to me, and then it's aligning it, I guess when we're looking at our next role, our next position, it's quite difficult I've found. People's feedback is that it's really difficult to actually know whether this is actually going to be culturally aligned to me and my values without, it's not until you get there that you actually really see what's actually the reality of the culture. There's a lot of, you know, sweet talking that goes on potentially.

Renee Burkinshaw, Founder and Director of Originate Coaching and Consulting:

That's right. And one key thing that I work with my executive coaching clients daily is the concept of your non negotiables. And so in thinking about my next opportunity, the way in which I'm engaging, you know, even when it comes to what are those times in which I actually have to influence now. If we think about what are the things that are most important to me? So if I was to assess this situation and it doesn't actually meet these particular criteria that are really important to me, that are aligned to my values, then it might be a no go. You know, you might actually go actually this is not the place for me, this is not the project for me, this is not the role or the organisation. And this is an opportunity for us to actually start to create that framework and to also create boundaries, which is so critical around what are non negotiable, we're actually living into those values. So I think this might be a perfect opportunity Caroline, for us to go to the next poll question, and we might actually run them concurrently. So we've got two more poll questions for you all. This is actually aligned to your purpose. So I'm curious, have you ever considered the intersection between your personal and your professional purpose in your life? So the response options are yes frequently, yes I think about it occasionally, not really, and actually I've never really thought about it. I've never actually thought about that intersection between my personal and professional life. So I'm very curious to see what our responses are here before we move to the next one, because that intersection, for some of us is really critical, and for others it's not. Here we go, wow. So 66% have said yes, frequently I'm thinking about that intersection between my personal and professional life, and I'd love to know in the chat box as well, has this actually amplified since your experience of having to go through working from home full time out of covid? Has there been some shift that you've actually had in your lifetime that has created this need to go I need greater alignment? There are some boundaries or some non negotiables that exist. But yes, occasionally, these might be those little thought bubbles around where I'm currently at in my career journey, or the people that I'm working with. And then we've got some smaller numbers, 5% not really, and 1% never thought about it. Very interesting. Thank you all so much for participating in that one. And then we might just move to the next and final poll question. So have you thought about the intersection. So if you have thought about it, so for the greater majority of the people on call today, if you thought about that connection or intersection between personal and professional purpose in your life, tell us when did you consider it? Was it when things were going really well? You felt as though that you were in control. You were in the driver's seat. Was it when you were at a crossroads, you actually had some big decisions to make, and that you actually had the agency to decide? So you felt as though you were empowered to make that decision. When there was an unexpected change that you thought about that intersection? Or was it during a period of self reflection?

Caroline McAuliffe, Senior Partner at Watermark Search International:

There wasn't an option for all of the above. A couple of people have said in the chat, all of the above, actually.

Renee Burkinshaw, Founder and Director of Originate Coaching and Consulting:

All of the above. Yeah, and if we were to think about when it happens most frequently for us, these are the moments in which we actually need to double down on and actually invest in, when these things are happening. So if life is going really well for me, am I really reflecting on that personal intersection? Who is surrounding me? What support do I actually have? Oh here we go, the complete clip. So it's usually during those periods of self reflection where you've actually had those moments when there has been unexpected changes at 19% and then when I was at a crossroads is nearly 50/50 between that split of 38% were, I actually had to make some hard decision in my life, and then that period of self reflection. A lot of the time here, when I'm looking at those two responses, this is actually when you have felt in control. This is when, yes, there is challenge, there is that strive, there is that stretch and you've been in a position to be able to make a decision, so that's really encouraging. So I think the word of purpose, when we're talking about purpose, the purpose is really the belief that what we do matters to people other than self. And so in thinking about the times in which you've had to make those decisions about that intersection of your professional and personal life, there is that interesting connection, and I just saw it popped up on the on the screen in the chat about Ikigai. Before we do, I'd actually like to share my story around how I've sort of discovered that for myself and those periods of reflection. So I've been doing some research recently around critical points in your lifetime where you've got these particular moments and you're feeling, actually, I want to make a difference, or I wish that things could be different. And if I do, how’s that's actually going to start to generate change. And what we've found is that there are three critical points in your early lifetime where these formative years and different experiences and exposure have actually helped us to start to identify what is that genuine sense of purpose in ourself. You know, when we come to a retirement age, you go, gosh what's my purpose? What have I got to do next? This is a perfect opportunity. Or if you're thinking about, I'm at a crossroads, what do I really want to do next? What brings me to life? What actually creates that fire in my belly? And so if I think about the age of seven, being in primary school, I think that this was my first ever exposure to what I felt was an injustice around bullying, where kids were being really mean, and it was actually very confronting. The relationships that I'd established around that time and the support that I gave to people, it actually felt right. That this was the difference, or this change that I actually wanted to make in my little world at the age of seven, to my friend.

Caroline McAuliffe, Senior Partner at Watermark Search International:

I had a similar experience.

Renee Burkinshaw, Founder and Director of Originate Coaching and Consulting:

Yeah, fast forward to 14, and thinking about, what was I really doing? What was I feeling as though was rubbing up, getting up under my skin, that was actually feeling as an injustice? And there was actually similar experiences, and me being the person that I am, I put my hand up to volunteer my lunchtimes to be a peer mediator at my school. And that peer mediation was, you would have kids that were in conflict and I would actually bring them together, and we would actually have an open and safe conversation about what actually happened and how they're going to resolve it and be able to work together moving forwards. So at the age of 14 and through those high school years, it's a lot of pressure to be put on, but I felt as though I was genuinely making a difference in giving back. Fast forward again, another seven years to the age of 21 and fascinatingly, this is where I was in my undergraduate career, and I decided, actually, I'm really enjoying the idea of psychology and sociology. And then one of my friends at the time actually said to me, you really genuinely care about people's experience. And so whether that's experience in friendship groups, experience in society, experience at university, and certainly my experience in my working world. They said so you need to get into human resources. And I thought, oh I wonder what that's all about? And from there, I discovered these amazing intersections of what is impact of self and our experience of society, and how that then not only effects ourselves and our own psychology, but certainly the impact of that on others. And then in the microcosm of what is a working environment, I felt at home. I felt from an HR perspective, going gosh these are my people, and I feel that I can actually make a difference in individuals lives, whether they are individual contributors or if they're people leaders in an organisation. And to be present with them, to create psychologically safe spaces where they can unpack challenges and issues. Emotion is okay. And to coach them through what is going to be a great outcome, and support them to ensure that they actually are able to get there. So in thinking about these moments at 7, 14, 21, it gives you this sense of, wow there actually is a thread. There is a thread that actually does exist.

Caroline McAuliffe, Senior Partner at Watermark Search International:

And you've been in flow ever since, and you've never worked another day in your life.

Renee Burkinshaw, Founder and Director of Originate Coaching and Consulting:

That is absolutely the goal, that is absolutely the goal. Enjoy what you are doing and you feel like you are living into that sense of purpose.

Caroline McAuliffe, Senior Partner at Watermark Search International:

Yeah, I'm just going to flick back to a quick question, because it something that's coming up more and more. The question and challenge of five different generations in a workforce. Paul here has commented that leading teams represented by those diverse age groups presents a challenge in that aligning culture and values, because they're quite different, and they have different ideas of what meaning is for them. And I don't think it is, I mean Paul's mentioned Gen Z here, but it's not just Gen Z. I would say that every generation has its challenges, because what they believe, what drives them and what's important to them. So what's your comments there Renee? If you are leading a diverse, multi-generational workforce, how do you go about that, making sure that everyone feels heard?

Renee Burkinshaw, Founder and Director of Originate Coaching and Consulting:

Yeah, so there's interesting research recently around, if we sort of go back to that Maslow's hierarchy concept that we've shared, because all of us would know that and be able to identify quite quickly with it. Those bottom two areas around, am I physiologically, are those needs being met? And are my safety and security needs met? Across all of our generations, there's no difference. We are all actually looking to strive to achieve those elements. So if that is a space of being, what we need to do as leaders is actually start to lean to that belonging component. And look at, am I actually having great conversations with each of my employees, each of the members of my team, to really understand what motivates them? Because I think what is an interesting observation is that everyone is not motivated by the same thing. And so for some people it is purely, I just want that paycheck. I just want to rock up, I just work nine to five and go home. That's also okay, because what we need to understand is, if that is their motivation, without judgment, how do we provide an environment where they are able to do that, they feel as though that they are actually contributing to something that's greater than themselves? In the mix of the different generations, in thinking about the following the next three layers, which is really around our relationship. What are they looking for in that relationship with yourself as a leader, if we just think about that one on one. And then from an esteem perspective, what are you doing actually, to involve them, to consult, to collaborate, to give them opportunities? And then that self-actualisation of the stretch, what does that look like for that particular individual? And for some people it's more of, actually I just love to share my stories and my learning. I don't want to lose the knowledge that I actually have acquired over many, many years, versus someone that might be quite early in their career, coming into that organisation, it might be, actually I really just want to be able to achieve that particular project. I want to learn this particular skill, or wrap myself around that particular platform. I actually want to progress. And so the development conversations and those one on one conversations should actually be different. And my advice is allow for the individual to come to those conversations with their own agenda, rather than us as leaders driving that agenda. So there is that element of empowerment as to how it is that we can meet them where they're at.

Caroline McAuliffe, Senior Partner at Watermark Search International:

It's kind of a balance though, in terms of managing expectations, though?

Renee Burkinshaw, Founder and Director of Originate Coaching and Consulting:

Yeah, so there's performance expectations, absolutely. That will always be a factor those conversations. But it's more of, if we were to, so thinking about even the feedback model, so rather than thinking of it retrospectively, what didn't go well. It's more of, well are we taking it from a feed forward perspective to say, well what are the things that you do extremely well? How is it that we can actually leverage more strength based conversations to understand well, if that strength is connected to that sense of motivation, which is connected to that behaviour, there is such a huge opportunity for us to actually start to develop different, better and more connected relationships.

Caroline McAuliffe, Senior Partner at Watermark Search International:

I guess in my mind, it's easy to manage that when it's a small to medium sized business, but when you've got 1000s of multi-generational people, is there a difference in your approach there?

Renee Burkinshaw, Founder and Director of Originate Coaching and Consulting:

I think it's really around, how are we role modeling? So rather than feeling as though we are personally responsible to actually be driving that ourselves, how we're role modeling the opportunity to create mentors. Peer coaching and peer mentoring are such a powerful tool that I think a lot of us have actually lost sight of over time. And so this is a great opportunity for us as leaders to say well, how is it that we can actually create consistent support across very diverse teams, in looking at what is multi-generational relationships. A lot of the time when we think about mentoring and it's like, oh it's top down. Actually, power really is if we were to flip it. The opportunity for us to learn from one another, and that we actually are taking something from that experience, is just as important or even more important.

Caroline McAuliffe, Senior Partner at Watermark Search International:

So Jo's mentioned, the larger the organisation, the more the responsibility is distributed to leaders in middle management roles. The approach is the same, but it takes more coordination. Yeah, definitely an alignment of those leaders in how we're going to manage that. That's where it needs to happen, isn't it? The alignment.

Renee Burkinshaw, Founder and Director of Originate Coaching and Consulting:

Absolutely, and I think that there is, as much as yes we would love for the executive to be all involved and to be actively engaged in this space, the power of our frontline leaders or our middle management tier is that they are closest to our customers, closest to our clients and consumers, but also closest to our employees. And so investing in their ability to make those genuine connections, to become more inclusive in their leadership style, and to be able to look at, where are the opportunities for peer coaching, peer mentoring, other supports, so that there is a cross pollination across the organisation. Rather than just feeling this is my number one team, just the people that are reporting to me. More of, how am I of service to the greater good?

Caroline McAuliffe, Senior Partner at Watermark Search International:

I quite often watch Simon Sinek, and he gets often asked, it's all very well to talk about the why and living the values, but I'm in an organisation where the leaders, or my next senior manager, they don't live those values at all, and it's very frustrating for me. And I know he has an answer to that, but what would your answer be to that, if you find yourself in that situation?

Renee Burkinshaw, Founder and Director of Originate Coaching and Consulting:

For me, a lot of the time we're always looking externally from ourself and that we're always wanting to either point blame or to shift that accountability elsewhere. My advice is really to hold up, I like to call it a mirror moment. Hold up that mirror and going, what's most important to me? What are my values? What are my strengths, and how do I want to be remembered? So there is definitely an element around, am I investing in understanding what my drivers are, that sense of purpose, how I want to be remembered, so thinking about your leadership and that legacy. And if there is a significant misalignment there with the organisation, are you in a space where you feel comfortable to be able to speak up, and if you feel as though you're able to influence now? And if not, go back to that sense of, is this the right place for me? Is this the right organisation for me? Interestingly, this morning it popped up, and I get some beautiful little quotes. And it was actually a Rumi quote that came up. And without me completely destroying the quote, I won't quote it completely but it was essentially, why do you stay in jail, when the door is actually open? We actually all have a sense of agency to make decisions.

Caroline McAuliffe, Senior Partner at Watermark Search International:

Yeah, Simon Sinek's answer is, be the leader you would like to have.

Renee Burkinshaw, Founder and Director of Originate Coaching and Consulting:

Absolutely. We think about that and going, are you showing up in the way that your younger self would actually need right now? And sometimes even just thinking about just self in that space is extraordinarily powerful. And that's where that mirror moment is really important to say, am I showing up in the way in which I believe that I am, that is actually honoring my sense of self and how I want to be known? So that's actually a really critical element, and it's a fascinating component as well around, people look to purpose to say, oh well I've got to create it. And I'm of the belief that we actually discover it. And so in talking about that journey is, how am I actually taking the time to reflect and to explore and discover what it is that I feel most connected to, and then making informed decisions that are actually going to help me to align that that?

Caroline McAuliffe, Senior Partner at Watermark Search International:

Yeah, so intentionality in purpose. Can you talk a bit about that please?

Renee Burkinshaw, Founder and Director of Originate Coaching and Consulting:

Yeah, so the intentionality, and someone previously popped up the word Ikigai, and I'm not sure everyone has read this book, but I highly recommend it. There's even a Netflix show at the moment about the Blue Zones, which is a fantastic watch as well. But to me, it's that intersection between, now what do we love, what do we need? What are our skills? And then, obviously what's going to make us money? Because at the end of the day, from a working perspective, that is a critical basic need. If we overlay that with, what is my sense of mission? We're talking about that sense of purpose. And then, is that aligned to my profession, or is that also aligned to my reputation? Now, as much as I would love to say that we're all in zen, that we've all got this Ikigai happening, understanding what those elements are for you and making decisions that are going to be aligned to that. So it may not be for today, but it might be that next career journey step, it may be that side hustle that you're doing on the weekend, it might be volunteering, whether it's pro bono opportunities. That's where I think for myself as well, having the opportunity to really live into my purpose now, I've also been able to make decisions to say, I actually want to allocate time to use my skills and experience to benefit others through volunteering opportunities. And so it's more of, what is most important to you in those spaces? And you will find those different elements with your Ikigai across your whole life experience. Your whole, rather than just thinking it needs to be from a career or an employment lens.

Caroline McAuliffe, Senior Partner at Watermark Search International:

Yeah, rather than everything, it doesn't have to be income generating. It could be a hobby, as you say, a side interest of volunteering, a pro bono way of working. And that's the wonderful thing about the interim way of working. Is that if you consider, and we often ask, we do every time ask our people to consider interims. To consider what does that portfolio, what are your superpowers that's going to earn you the money and the income skill stack and experience and your currency and keep that going. But also, if you can interface some of your passion projects as well at that point in time, and the interim way of working allows you to. Perhaps maybe you do your income generating work in three days of your week, and the other two days is devoted to your other passion projects.

Renee Burkinshaw, Founder and Director of Originate Coaching and Consulting:

Absolutely, and that's where that sense of agency we've discussed previously around the you know that core question a lot of people ask executives, which is, what keeps you awake at night? Conversely, my advice would actually be to throw that question out. I'd like to know what gets you out of bed in the morning? So what are those drivers and motivators? What energises you, what inspires you? And I think that this is where you know, in thinking about Ikigai, thinking about that intersection between personal and professional, there is intention and inspiration. And when they are coming together and you are showing up in a way that you believe is really honouring yourself and those around you. I also like to think of a three point model, which is around, am I showing up from my head perspective? So what is my way of thinking? Heart? So what is my way of feeling? And my hands? What is my way of doing? And if we think about the head, heart and hands connection, depending on where you are at, the conversations that you're having with others, the decisions that you're actually having to make, if those three elements are actually aligned, you can say hand on heart, that this is actually an informed decision that is coming from a place of purpose.

Caroline McAuliffe, Senior Partner at Watermark Search International:

So should we move to some practical strategies then Renee? Key takeaways for everyone who's been listening today on their journey. What can we start to do today to actually help us define what is important to us?

Renee Burkinshaw, Founder and Director of Originate Coaching and Consulting:

Absolutely, so I've got four key things, and I've written them down so I didn't forget. The first one was really around, take time to do some assessment, some self assessment. That self assessment might be on your values, it might be on your strengths, and it's also potentially on your leadership style. Now there is that one way view of I'm discovering this for myself, but then I also like to stretch people to say, even from an informal perspective, go out and actively seek feedback. So if you're not too sure, there are two questions that I would love people to take away, to get some of this feedback, to start to reflect on what's actually happening. What are my genuine core signature strengths and values? Those two questions are, what are my true strengths? Simple question. And the next one is, what has been a moment that has mattered for you, that has made a positive impact on your experience? On the sporting field, experience from a volunteer perspective, experience from my family, my friends. These questions don't actually have to be based on your work experience, they just need to be where those motivators are. So just to recap, what are my two strengths and what has been one moment that's mattered for you that has had a positive experience in your life.

Caroline McAuliffe, Senior Partner at Watermark Search International:

It's incredible the feedback that you get when you ask those questions, because we are always informing ourselves and self assessing, but it's only when you ask the question out there of people, those questions, the words that come back, is so enlightening. That's your reputation, isn't it? And that's what you've been building, the relationship with everyone, but you've not really heard it. It's good to hear.

Renee Burkinshaw, Founder and Director of Originate Coaching and Consulting:

That's right. Absolutely. It's so important to hear. And those elements, you'll actually start to see those things come through. What are the core values that are showing up? All of a sudden, just say you ask a minimum of five people, or even 10 people, all of a sudden, this core thing comes through. Wow, I'm actually taking that for granted, I’m clearly having an impact. How do I do this more? So that now takes me to the next one, which is going back to those non-negotiables. What are the things that you are measuring and determining as your boundaries as to what it is that I absolutely need to feel as though I am living into my career? So think about if I'm to assess this situation, what is my non-negotiable? What am I not willing to negotiate? The third is thinking about your impact alignment. So at the very beginning, we talked about those five different components. What is my connection to culture, to wellbeing, to inclusion, to productivity and to sustainability within my current organisation or role, or the future organisation and role that I'm looking at potentially working at? It's an interesting intersect, because if all of a sudden we start to go actually, this is really important to me. How people are treated at work is my number one value when it comes to being employed. If you're reading on Glassdoor or if you're actually hearing stories from other people that are indicating a different story, we can start to test it and start to make some important decisions. And then the final one is really around inspiration. It's quite interesting when we think about the stories that we tell that might just change somebody's whole life in that moment. And a lot of that feedback, we don't actually take that into consideration and go wow, some people, if they're able to come forward and say, when you did this, this was the impact. Understanding our role in how we're showing up, and having that impact. Be that role model. Start measuring what actually matters. Share your motivators. So if you're feeling a little stuck and a little bit things are not completely aligned, how is it that you can share what those motivators are, what is actually going to inspire and drive you and to help you to be engaged. Then conversely, asking questions of other people, motivating them, what does success look like, and how can I support you to achieve? So role modeling and being that mentor.

Caroline McAuliffe, Senior Partner at Watermark Search International:

When we are looking at new opportunities, and we've already said, it is clearly very difficult to assess what's real from an interview process as to when you land, it's quite different. Is there any practical tips as to how to uncover the reality of a culture before you sign up?

Renee Burkinshaw, Founder and Director of Originate Coaching and Consulting:

Absolutely. Number one, always do your research. Prepare for the absolute possible or even the impossible in those particular instances. So you are actually having conversations, you're checking different platforms, you're starting to read even what's been in the media about this particular organisation. What do they actually stand for and what challenges are they overcoming. And there's two particular questions that I recommend for a number of my career coaching clients. The first one is, asking the hiring manager or the person that is most influential across the zooms, the Zoom Room, or potentially over the desk, is, what do you love about either the culture, but I always ask them remove the word culture, because all of a sudden you'll usually get this motherhood statement. So, what do you love about working here? Very simple. But using emotive language, the words love and you. Very direct, very personal. And instantly you'll see those red flags. All of a sudden they're like, oh actually, you can ask Mary first, come back to me. It starts to identify, you know what, there’s something not quite right. What else do I need to ask to start to go deeper? And then the other question is then around their motivations and their priorities. And that question is, you can just say, six months from now, bigger timeframe, in six months from now, what would you love to say that we have achieved together? What does great look like, but on a very personal level? And also to start to uncover their personal leadership styles and their ways of working. It's what examples they then give you that will give you that indication to go, they're highly collaborative, or potentially they are a drop, set and forget. I'm just going to leave you out there, and I'm not actually going to check in, so you can actually start to really assess, what are those leadership styles, and are they aligned with the environment that will actually help me to be successful.

Caroline McAuliffe, Senior Partner at Watermark Search International:

What would be one small step for an organisation who have not been focused in this space, that they could do easily today? Of all of those ideas?

Renee Burkinshaw, Founder and Director of Originate Coaching and Consulting:

I think it's about resetting what is the experience of one-on-one conversation? Yeah, it's back to basics. It's, are our leaders investing time into what is most important in their role, which is actually supporting their team to succeed? That would be the number one, which is, let's reimagine what is that one-on-one experience and empower employees to be able to set the agenda.

Caroline McAuliffe, Senior Partner at Watermark Search International:

Fantastic. In terms of when you're dealing in a current environment of stress, financial stress, headwinds, when the focus isn't necessarily on this culture, but on survival. There's obviously research, and you've even provided some of that to us. Is that the way to go about getting focused, sharp focus on this space? When you're dealing with a board or an executive that are under pressure, how do you go about that well?

Renee Burkinshaw, Founder and Director of Originate Coaching and Consulting:

Yeah, and I think that this is, the coming back to the measure, or at least report. What you report on actually gets done. There's an opportunity here for us to actually start to look at, what are the insights? So rather than just, especially in the space of diversity, equity and inclusion, it still feels like it's not something that is a must do, that is actually part of the way in which we do things. But it's just something that we actually have to report on, there's a compliance, ticking a box. So there's an opportunity for us to actually look at, what does it look and feel like if we implement this, and then what is the return on investment? And then, from an executive or board perspective, what is the risk if we do and then what is the risk if we don't? And so getting back to, what are those key things that are going to be that driver as to the shift in the behavior, the decisions that actually need to be made, and to ensure that, at the end of the day, yes hard decisions have to be made, but at what cost? And in thinking about people's experience of work, if there is change coming, how is it that we can continue to uphold what is the culture that we've built to ensure that people are treated with dignity. And that if the outcome is that people choose to leave or are required to depart from the organisation, they would actually look back at that experience and say I was treated well and that I'm an advocate for that particular organisation. So there are many behavioural elements that actually need to be considered in this way. And a lot of it is just getting back to humanity.

Caroline McAuliffe, Senior Partner at Watermark Search International:

Yes. Remembering that we are all human people. We're not human resources. It's amazing how direct manager effects belonging. This is what Elizabeth is saying. Her daughter, or friend's daughter, sorry, works at a unicorn in the US that provide every possible benefit and flexibility. But she's not returning from her mat leave due to her direct boss, right.

Renee Burkinshaw, Founder and Director of Originate Coaching and Consulting:

Yeah, we hear that story a lot, don't we, Caroline?

Caroline McAuliffe, Senior Partner at Watermark Search International:

I absolutely do. It's all about the people you're working with every single day that'll make or break the relationship.

Renee Burkinshaw, Founder and Director of Originate Coaching and Consulting:

Yes, yes. And I think that this is where, when we think about, am I role modeling? Am I actually showing up in a way that really honours how I want to be remembered? The work that we must do on what is my leadership philosophy, what do I stand for, is so critical. And in those particular instances, making sure that person is able to have a voice and to be able to provide feedback as to what they need, and then what is the gap? Yeah, and so doubling down on establishing positive relationships is critical, and hoping that she's been able to do that, and to me, be able to make an informed conscience to what she's doing.

Caroline McAuliffe, Senior Partner at Watermark Search International:

So thank you, Renee, for all of the wonderful work that you do in this very important area. We'd love to hear from you, regardless of whether you've been an experienced Interim Executive, also if you're thinking about this, if it's just, if you're about to embark on this type of career, we'd love to hear from you. Your thoughts. Go to our other webinars, we have a number of, a series of thought leadership webinars, including Renee today that are really interesting. And of course, there is “The Rise of the Interim Executive”, if you're interested, Caroline and Jacinta’s book, available to you at that website. We hope sincerely that you've enjoyed it, that the practical tips that Renee has shared today have been useful and valuable. Again, Renee, thank you so much for your time today and sharing all of your wisdom with our group.

Renee Burkinshaw, Founder and Director of Originate Coaching and Consulting:

Thank you for having me.

Caroline McAuliffe, Senior Partner at Watermark Search International:

You're very welcome. That wraps up today's episode of the Watermark Search Podcast - Masterclass Series. We hope you found the insights both inspiring and practical. If you're enjoying the show and want to hear more, we'd love to hear from you. Please subscribe, rate and leave a review on your favourite podcast platform. Your feedback helps us to improve and bring you the content you want. Please don't forget to follow us on LinkedIn for updates on upcoming episodes and more great content from Watermark Search. If you have any questions or topics you'd like us to cover in future episodes, please feel free to reach out. Thank you for joining us, and we look forward to bringing you more masterclasses in future episodes. Until then, stay inspired.

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